Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/03/2000 05:07 PM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES April 3, 2000 5:07 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative John Harris, Co-Chair Representative Carl Morgan, Co-Chair Representative Fred Dyson Representative Jim Whitaker Representative Mary Kapsner Representative Hal Smalley MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Bill Hudson COMMITTEE CALENDAR CONFIRMATION HEARINGS Board of Fisheries Robert "Ed" Dersham - Anchor Point Larry J. Engel - Palmer - CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED OVERVIEW: IMPACTS OF BRITISH COLUMBIA FARMED ATLANTIC SALMON ON ALASKA WILD SALMON STOCKS - POSTPONED PREVIOUS ACTION No previous action to record. WITNESS REGISTER REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 411 Juneau, Alaska 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of Mr. Dersham's appointment to the Board of Fisheries. CARL ROSIER, President Alaska Outdoor Council 8298 Garnet Street Juneau, Alaska 99801 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of Mr. Dersham's and Mr. Engel's appointments to the Board of Fisheries. ROBERT "ED" DERSHAM, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries PO Box 555 Anchor Point, Alaska 99556 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of Fisheries. DALE BONDURANT 31864 Moonshine Drive Soldotna, Alaska 99669 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of Mr. Dersham's and Mr. Engel's appointments to the Board of Fisheries. GERRY MERRIGAN, Director Petersburg Vessel Owners Association PO box 232 Petersburg, Alaska 99833 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to the appointment of Mr. Dersham and Mr. Engel to the Board of Fisheries, not on the basis of their personal qualifications, but in relation to the hopes of getting a commercial fishing representative on the board. LARRY ENGEL, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries PO Box 197 Palmer, Alaska 99645 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of Fisheries. JERRY McCUNE, Representative United Fishermen of Alaska 211 Fourth Street, Suite 110 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1172 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the appointment of Mr. Dersham and Mr. Engel to the Board of Fisheries in relation to the lack of commercial fishing representation on the board. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 00-11, SIDE A Number 0001 CO-CHAIRMAN CARL MORGAN called the House Special Committee on Fisheries meeting to order at 5:07 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Harris, Morgan, Dyson and Smalley. Representatives Kapsner and Whitaker arrived as the meeting was in progress. CONFIRMATION HEARINGS - Board of Fisheries CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN announced the committee would consider two appointees to the Board of Fisheries - Mr. Robert "Ed" Dersham of Anchor Point; and Mr. Larry J. Engel of Palmer. (Resumes were provided for each appointee.) CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN announced the committee would first consider the appointment of Mr. Robert "Ed" Dersham of Anchor Point to the Board of Fisheries. [There was also discussion in relation to Mr. Larry Engel's appointment to the Board of Fisheries.] Number 0105 REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS, Alaska State Legislature, came before the committee to testify. She has known Mr. Dersham and has worked with him for many years. He has been a capable member of the board; he has been doing a great job. He has brought a sense of balance. She strongly urged the committee members to support his confirmation to the Board of Fisheries. Number 0177 CARL ROSIER, President, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), came before the committee to testify. Mr. Dersham has been a good board member. He's come to the board meetings well prepared. The AOC supports the reconfirmation of Mr. Dersham to the Board of Fisheries. Number 0250 CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN called on Mr. Dersham and asked him whether he's willing and ready to serve on the Board of Fisheries. ROBERT "ED" DERSHAM, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference from Homer. Yes, he has been on the board for three years now, and he has learned a lot during that time. He has been to all the regions of the state and can use the knowledge that he has gained to be an effective member of the board for the next three years. He has also enjoyed working with all the different user groups. He feels that it has been a productive process. He would very much like to be a part of the board again. Number 0320 CO-CHAIRMAN JOHN HARRIS talked about the concerns of the commercial fishing interests in relation to the decisions and practices of the Board of Fisheries. He then asked Mr. Dersham what the board could do differently to direct more interest toward regional areas, such as the local advisory committees, since the board deals with statewide concerns and since many regions have different points of view. MR. DERSHAM replied that the local advisory committees are key to providing local input to the board, especially for the more remote areas. He further stated the subcommittee process that the board uses at regulatory meetings has enhanced input from the advisory committees. The advisory committee members, he explained, are ad hoc members of the subcommittees, which allow for more input in addition to the 15 minutes allotted for public testimony. The board, he noted, put the subcommittee process into policy at its March meeting. The board also works closely with the advisory committees in relation to task forces and standing committees to provide a sense of ownership. He cited the local area management plans for halibut in Kodiak, Cook Inlet, Prince William Sound, Resurrection Bay and Yakutat as examples of areas that are closely tied to the local advisory committees. Number 0633 CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS asked Mr. Dersham how much weight the board gives to the local advisory committee's recommendation in comparison to information or opinions coming from other areas of the state. MR. DERSHAM replied that that it depends on the circumstances. As a general rule, the board members give a lot of weight to the advisory committee's recommendation, but it depends on the issue. If there are a lot of legal questions involved, for example, sometimes the board can't follow the advice of the local advisory committee. He further noted that some of the advisory committees felt that when the subcommittee process was first started it was not enhancing their input; some thought that it was diminishing their input. But that has changed since it has been taken around the state to different meetings, and some changes have been made to it. Number 0775 REPRESENTATIVE HAL SMALLEY asked Mr. Dersham how he leans toward looking at the biological and scientific data in regard to the management of salmon fisheries - the Cook Inlet salmon fishery in particular. MR. DERSHAM replied biological and scientific data are very important. The better the data, he said, the easier it is to make a decision. The board always tries to seek out the very best data available, but sometimes it is not available because of the costs associated with gathering certain kinds of data. For example, biological data is the most important deciding factor for interception and conservation issues. In regard to conservation of coho [salmon] in Cook Inlet, the biological data is greatly lacking; as a result, at the February meeting the board members had to make a decision based on the best data in front of them. REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY explained that he asked the question because of concerns expressed in regard to the decision made by the board in relation to putting as many coho [salmon] on the spawning bed as possible in spite of the fact that there wasn't a determined conservation need expressed by the Department of Fish & Game. MR. DERSHAM wondered whether the concerns are in relation to the request to change the agenda item, which came from the Governor, not the Department of Fish & Game. Once the request was accepted by the board, however, the department indicated that it felt there was a conservation concern in relation to the Kenai River and the northern district sockeye [salmon], particularly in Knik Arm. Number 1049 REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked Mr. Dersham how the board or legislature should evaluate the priority of who harvests fish once the wild stock has been satisfied. In other words: How should the resources be divided amongst consumptive, sport, industrial, charter, guide sport and commercial users? MR. DERSHAM replied that once escapement and subsistence needs are met in each fishery, the board looks to the seven allocation criteria that were adopted several years ago. The criteria relate to the importance of deciding among fisheries in regard to their importance to the economy of the state, to the economy of the region, to the characteristic and number of participants in each fishery and so forth. Those criteria, he said, are balanced and fair; when applied carefully, they are the best decision- making tools. Beyond the seven criteria, the board does its best to get the stakeholders to come to agreement amongst themselves. He cited a meeting in Sitka in February at which the stakeholders (guide, non-guide, and commercial users) spent a good part of a day "hammering out" an agreement on king salmon allocation with the guidance and help of the board. That is the best way, he said, to come to an agreement; but he recognized that that is not possible all of the time. Number 1303 DALE BONDURANT testified via teleconference from Kenai. He is a 53-year-resident of the state. He has attended many board meetings. Mr. Dersham has shown that he's a fast learner. He called him a sincere member of the board in that he works well with the other members. Mr. Bondurant supports the confirmation of Mr. Dersham to the Board of Fisheries. Number 1361 GERRY MERRIGAN, Director, Petersburg Vessel Owners Association, testified via teleconference from Petersburg. He has been to a fair number of board meetings in the last couple of years. He can say that he's had some good and bad experiences. He has also experienced frustration. He has worked with both Mr. Dersham and Mr. Engel, and he thinks that they are pretty open people. But the key to the board, he said, is balance; and, in that regard, commercial fishing interests do not have a representative on the board. There is no member on the board who makes a living commercial fishing. In particular, there is an absence of members who fish on the ocean. There is no "blue" water experience on the board. He said: Where there are a lot of allocation issues in front of the board, there are a lot of nuts and bolts issues of just commercial fishing and how it works. The ... committee process is a wonderful thing, but it's also dying of its own length. And part of it is just trying to get all the points across, and some of these may be done better by more knowledgeable board members. It seems like other boards and commissions ... are represented by people that actually have some involvement in that fishery, and right now we just don't have anybody on the board. MR. MERRIGAN further noted that there were several people who put their names in for an appointment, but the Governor chose not to pass them on. He cited Robert Merchant (ph) from Kenai as an example. CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN asked Mr. Merrigan whether he opposes or supports the confirmation of Mr. Dersham and Mr. Engel. MR. MERRIGAN replied he would have to oppose their confirmations, not on the basis of their personal qualifications, but in the hopes of getting a commercial representative on the board. Number 1510 CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS asked Mr. Merrigan why he thinks the Governor is not listening to recommendations to appoint commercial fishermen as board members. MR. MERRIGAN replied that one problem is because there isn't a fisheries advisor as part of the governor's cabinet. The position hasn't been filled since Jay Nelson (ph) left two years. In that regard, it's hard to contact the governor's office. He further noted that the Governor has been to Petersburg at which time the same complaint was expressed to him. But the Governor, he said, has only lent a "deaf ear." Number 1486 REPRESENTATIVE MARY KAPSNER recommended to Mr. Merrigan that he approach Bob King [Robert, Press Secretary, Office of the Governor], who was originally from Dillingham; and Kate Troll [Fisheries Development, Juneau Office, Division of Trade and Development, Department of Community & Economic Development]. MR. MERRIGAN noted that the Petersburg Vessel Owners Association is still waiting on a call from the boards and commissions staff in the Governor's office in relation to the North Pacific Council appointments. CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN announced the committee would next consider the appointment of Mr. Larry Engel of Palmer to the Board of Fisheries. Number 1663 CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN called on Mr. Engel and asked him why he would like to be reappointed to the Board of Fisheries. LARRY ENGEL, Appointee to the Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference from Palmer. Fisheries, he said, have been a very important part of his life since his earliest remembrance. He grew up in the state of Washington and participated in his family's commercial fishing activities in the San Juan Islands during his youth. He attended and graduated from the University of Washington's College of Fisheries. He came to Alaska during the territorial days as part of the U.S. Naval Station in Kodiak where he can recall the debate over the issue of fisheries in relation to statehood. He worked for the Alaska Department of Fish & Game from 1960 to 1992 until he retired. He has also worked with the Matanuska-Susitna Borough on a contractual basis in relation to fisheries issues. He was appointed to the Board of Game in 1992 by Governor Hickel. He was reappointed by Governor Knowles. He feels that at this point in his life he can give back to the fisheries resource. He further noted that serving on the board is a volunteer type of service, which is what people do to make the country strong. He asked that the committee members consider his confirmation favorably. Number 1833 REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY asked Mr. Engel what he envisions over the next ten years in relation to the economic considerations and commercial fisheries in Western Alaska, Cook Inlet and the Copper River. In that regard, he's looking for words like strong, weak or just plain absent. MR. ENGEL replied, he thinks, that all of the fisheries in the state have certain challenges ahead. He said, We all know that farmed fish take 40 percent of the world market. We all know that hatchery and some elements/parts of the state have augmented the natural reproduction to a very substantial amount that has had potential impacts on other geographical areas of the state. We do know that these types of things create enormous amounts of uncertainty within the commercial and sport fishing industries in the state of Alaska. As to Western Alaska, we've had a chronic...Let me say this, in the state of Alaska we've been riding very, very high on our salmon productions, not just in (indisc.--something fell over the microphone) but ... almost overall the highest production we've ever seen. If you look at the one-hundred-year-harvest situation in Alaska, we are doing very well. We are breaking records more often than not, but there are certain areas that are not, and that's Western Alaska. For whatever the reason, something is going on in the Bering Sea ... beyond our understanding. Western Alaskan stocks are not doing well. As far as Cook Inlet goes, I think Cook Inlet stocks are generally healthy. We've got a lot of things in place to manage our sockeye [salmon]. We're getting a lot of things in place to manage our king salmon. They are the most [notable] to managers mainly because some of the other species are relatively minimal compared to the sockeye and the king salmon. But we're moving in the direction that we should be able to provide to stable fisheries in those areas. Prince William Sound, we've got an enormous hatchery- augmented situation that's very concerning to me: that we have relied so heavily on artificial reproduction of those stocks to maintain them. They're very healthy. Well, they're very robust, the hatchery stocks are. The percentage of wild fish are much, much smaller than the hatchery fish. There's been a flip in natural reproduction and artificial reproduction in that area. That concerns me, but, again, I don't know if I've responded to your questions. You've posed a very multi-faceted economic, social and biological question. Number 2038 REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY stated he specifically asked a broad question for conversational purposes. He said, If we were looking at a management of the resources from the Board of Fisheries' perspective and the discussion that we've had about commercial fisheries basically ... not having a voice. You know, if I look over the last 15 years, just the changes in the commercial fishing seasons, they've lost approximately half the number of days. And so, I guess, what I was looking forward to seeing if there was an answer about with the management of the resources in the manner in which it has been done, if you see commercial fishing as an endangered species? MR. ENGEL replied: Absolutely not. On a statewide basis commercial fishing is thriving, if you will, which is certainly the economic impacts of huge hatchery productions in the Asian countries, Japan, Russia, and in the 40 percent farmed. All you have to do is walk into Fred Meyer tomorrow and look and see what they've got for sale. They've got fillets of Atlantic farmed salmon. That's a fresh product that they can produce. Those are things that are threatening Alaska's commercial fishing. I think those are very threatening type things. If you're talking about Cook Inlet, in specific, I think Cook Inlet is having a situation where you've got a geographical human, you know, predator situation. There's more and more human beings living in Cook Inlet; over half the state's population wanting some reasonable share of the resource. The people that catch the majority of that resource at this time are commercial fishermen. And so they're threatening from that allocation standpoint; I think, others asking for some reasonable share, and from the economic impacts of the huge farmed production and huge hatchery production in the Asian countries. And so, yes, those are very serious and very concerning types of situations. The Board of Fisheries has somewhat limited ability to deal with some of these international type issues, but we certainly have a major player in terms of allocation between sport and commercial [users] within the Cook Inlet area and elsewhere in the state. But [in] most of the state, that's not a major issue right now. Bristol Bay, for example, is subject to the international play of the hatchery and the farmed fish and relatively small impacts in terms of any kind of reallocation, if you will, of those specific resource. But some other newcomer to the playing field so...But Cook Inlet's the opposite. I mean, they're right here in Anchorage, and they are subject to all kinds of pressures from outside. And I understand all of them and have to deal with them, and my most difficult challenge on the Board of Fisheries is allocation. Number 2209 DALE BONDURANT testified via teleconference from Kenai. He has known Mr. Engel for years. He's a real concerned individual on the board. He thinks out problems. He doesn't really "get in bed" with anybody in relation to allocation issues. In that regard, he supports his reconfirmation. Number 2240 CARL ROSIER, President, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), came before the committee to testify. He first responded to some of the previous comments. As he counts the members of the Board of Fisheries, there's at least four people who are strongly interested and participate in commercial fisheries. He cited that the gentleman from Sitka has trolled and purse-seined; there are two gill net representatives; and the gentleman appointed from Bristol Bay was strongly supported by the fishermen in Bristol Bay. MR. ROSIER continued. The AOC, he said, is a strong supporter of the board's regulatory system. During his employment with the Alaska Department of Fish & Game, he had the opportunity to observe and participate on a significant number of regulatory sessions with a variety of board members. The system in Alaska, he said, is the most publicly open process in the nation. And, when viewing the generally good condition of the fish and game resources, it is a system that has served the state well. And part of the board's effectiveness has been the quality of the many dedicated individuals who have served on what is considered the toughest regulatory appointment in the state. MR. ROSIER said the appointees before the committee are two very capable individuals who truly deserve to be confirmed for another term on the board. The current board operates as a consensus building entity that has established efficient processes to bring opposing views to the table for resolution amongst the stakeholders and further enlightenment of the board. If the stakeholders, however, cannot reach a consensus, the board has the last and best information on which to make the final decision. MR. ROSIER said that the present board leaves no question that the conservation of the resource is the priority consideration in the decision-making process. In this arena, he explained, the board has recently completed the development of a sustainable fisheries policy for the state. The development of the policy has occurred in conjunction with the stakeholder groups and the technical support of the Alaska Department of Fish & Game. The policy provides guidance to the public, department and future boards to ensure continued sustained yield. He called it a good piece of work. Balance in regard to decisions affecting a variety of user groups by the current board is probably the best that he has observed. MR. ROSIER said in that regard, no one interest group dominates the board, as has been observed in the past. Although a participant may not like a decision, that participant has every opportunity to make a case and know that the board is listening and fairly evaluating that participant's view. The members of the current board come to the meeting well prepared, which is obvious by the debate within the board and reams of material produced. The two members before the committee for reconfirmation have grown in their knowledge and understanding of the great number of fisheries in the state. The AOC, therefore, urges the committee members to support their confirmations. Number 2469 JERRY McCUNE, Representative, United Fishermen of Alaska (UFA), came before the committee to testify. The UFA is not going to testify for or against the appointments. In that regard, the UFA is going to "stay on the fence" and let the committee members stand on their own. In response to earlier comments, the fishing industry is saying that a person doesn't necessarily have to be a fisherman to sit on the board; the industry is saying that there are some areas that are lacking in expertise; for example, there isn't a member of the board who has "blue water" experience. Furthermore, a lot of the members are from Southcentral Alaska. The industry isn't saying that the members haven't fished or taken part in a fishery; but there really isn't a member of the board who makes a living from fishing, except for Mr. Miller [Grant J.] who recently gave his fishing permit to his son. In relation to comments made earlier about farmed fish, the industry is rebounding. He cited that exports of fish are up 46 percent. In that regard, markets are opening. He cited France as an example. Not every fishery, however, is getting the ex-vessel price that they should, but there has been an improvement. Number 2592 CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS asked Mr. McCune to explain the following language in a letter from the United Fishermen of Alaska to Governor Tony Knowles, dated March 31, 2000: I am also concerned that all the names of the prospective candidates were not on the table for public comment before you announced your decision. Alaska fishing groups and others put a lot of effort into considering Board of Fisheries candidates, putting names on the list at the last minute frustrates the public process. MR. McCUNE replied UFA is part of the process in that they review and interview those who have submitted their name as a possible candidate to the board. The governor, however, has the prerogative to put forward a name that is not on the list. In that regard, UFA would like to see some sort of process so that they would know who is being considered by the governor who is not on the list. Number 2687 CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS asked Mr. McCune whether UFA is not taking a position on either one of the appointees. MR. McCUNE stated that UFA is not taking a position on either one of the appointees. Number 2706 CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN announced that the names of Robert "Ed" Dersham and Larry Engel would be forwarded to the joint session of the House of Representatives and Senate for consideration. CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN informed listeners that the overview hearing on the impacts of British Columbia farmed Atlantic salmon on Alaska wild salmon stocks had been postponed. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business before the committee, Co-Chairman Morgan adjourned the House Special Committee on Fisheries meeting at 5:50 p.m.
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